whats wrong with ebay madness thread?

I apologise if I have missed something, but I don't understand what is wrong with the thread Vicky posted?

As far as I could tell, there was no discussion of the ethnobotanical use of the plant in question - only the crazy price?

I have checked the forum rules and can't see any breach? - Prior commented on the history of peyote..???

Could the mods please clarify this?


Cheers

apparently these threads are controversial and have a tendency to upset members but excuse the ignorance i honestly can't see why.
i request enlightenment.

What's the problem with talking about ethnobotany? the study of people using plants. Using cacti as a fence, eating cacti fruits, making fiber from agaves, etc. this is all ethnobotany. I think what you guys means is entheogenic, or illicit use, or something. If I'm talking about the history of the plant as a sacrament i see no problem. If i was talking about extracting chemicals from cactus i can see an issue.

BTW.. that loph clump in question sold for $405.00 + $20.00 postage

Guys,
I think to repeat what Trig has said more than a few times, discussions about the ethnobotany of cactus is best done on other forums - this is purely a grow and photo type site full of germination type hints and seed and plant swaps.

Site organisers are not interested in things like chemical composition, potency and things that could be done to cacti - other than to look at them.

In the past conversations have "drifted" towards and into these other areas, especially when photos are of Lophs.

Its NOT hard really - from Calycium, who tires of people drifting into troll-like territory.

(A Moderator comment)

It's not so much the ethnobotany/entheogenic side of things, though these threads can often trail off into that terrain.

I just prefer to not have this forum associated with ebay in particular and don't see why people really need to discuss it. We all know people pay exorbitant prices for cacti on ebay, so why do we need to go on about it here? Just a thought??? I will unlock the thread if people are really that keen to ahve it opened again.

The subject of Vicki's post was the price for which the plant sold, and that to me at least, was an interesting topic. I cant help but wonder whether the reaction would have been different had the expensive cactus in question been of a different species.

Being new here I haven't seen any other "gee whiz" posts concerning ebay et al. so I was somewhat impressed myself. In fact had I seen a cactus sell for that kind of money I might also have been tempted to draw attention to it! But maybe thats just my naivete, judging by the comments I guess its all been seen before.

To tell the truth I quite like the way that this site tends to focus away from the non-traditional entheogenic uses of cacti if only for the reason that this is discussed ad nauseam on numerous other sites. And I reckon it'd be a shame to see the same one-dimensional, back-biting waffle that too often characterises those discussions cluttering up the forums here.

That said, I think that the human use of cacti is an important and legitimate area of study which is also of great interest to a lot of people. And seeing that the 'Around the Fire' forum is for ... general discussion and chat ... I personally don't have a problem with posts concerning cactus prices or ethnobotanic use (or any other cactaceous matters) being placed there.

However its not my site and I dont make the rules! (Thank heavens!)

I wish to publicly apologise to anyone I upset by posting what I did. My intention for the post was the price some people are willing to pay to own that elusive cacti for their collection. I did not take into consideration the species or the fact that we are not to mention the E place where numerous items may be purchased.

As we are often asked where we got our cacti from I am going to have a dilemma as most of the cacti I have come from the E place.

I also must admit (being new to the world of cacti) that I had no idea cacti had an ethnobotanic/entheogenic use in some cultures until I joined this forum and found out it was a taboo subject.

My 2 cents...

Fair enough re not talking about the entheogenic qualities of some species, as has ben mentioned, this is done in great detail elsewhere...

WRT talking about Evilbay, i dunno how you can disassociate the forum with something that is probably a large % of a collectors collecting method? I know that i can get very few cacti over this end of the world, because there are very few collectors willing to sell the specimens that i'm after.

I need ebay like a hole in the head, but in the end, i have to utilise it to increase my hoard... Maybe it warrants further investigation as to a 'specimen purchases' available in the trade and sell section, this could then be used for any good sources of specimens - Evilbay, Oztion, others?

And as i've said before, if anyone has a big ario they want to sell me (or know someone from a society that does), please contact me. else i have to wait for it to come up on evilbay...

Given, I jumped in and played the"devil's Advocate" about the ethno stuff (because there are far better sites that promote this facet of that element of the cacti world)- I would say that that's where my opinion / view stopped.

But simply put - Trig's Forum - Trig's rules.

Personally, Vicki - you did nothing to breach the rules from where I sat either - but I did notice a striding by other members towards the all too familiar area the forum doesn't want to go down.

For gilligan - PM'd re a potential Evilbay Ariocarpus seller - only wish mine were old enough for it to be me.$$$ $$$

Whilst I completely agree with Calycium that Vicki was in line, I like Trig's attitude to the entheo slant, too...

Don't get me wrong, I'm very liberal and I'm intensely interested in ethnobotany (from an academic perspective), but I am concerned that a focus on this aspect of our interesting plants will draw the sort of wowser attention that has led to lophs being banned without just cause, and which will probably lead to trichs going the same way. Again, without any just cause. It's nice that there is at least one forum that doesn't delve into things that need more careful exploration than a causual knowledge, acquired over the wires, brings.

That's the down side of the intertubes - what is best left for circumspect backroom - or better still, mountaintop - conversation is dragged into the daylight by those who really shouldn't be opening their mouths.

As for the electronic garage sale - that's a real love-hate thing!

I don’t want to drag this on longer than it has to – As I brought this up I would like to explain my thoughts on this *groans from the crowd*

As already noted there are a number of issues.

EBay - I’m all for it - its good for collecting/selling cacti – discussion in forums like this helps moderate the prices that plants sell for - it helps educate members about prices & it makes for fun discussion too. In an open forum like ‘around the fire’ - in my mind is a great place for discussion of eBay cacti. On the other side of this - every now and then cacti are put up for sale which I’m sure are CITES protected wild harvested plants. So that’s bad.

Ethnobotany & cacti - I think it would be great to have a forum for it! I have never made a basket from an Agave. But I’d like to try! This might not be what this forum is about but I can’t see the harm in it? Of course this would need to be closely moderated to stay clear of certain elements of ethnobotany**
http://www.cssnz.org/ethnobotany-in-cactus-and-succulents.php

** Cacti ingestion for non nutritious reasons (psychoactive) – this has no place here. and what I think we are trying to avoid. The internet is flooded with forums that discuss this kind of thing and it’s nice to come to a serious cacti forum and not have it here. The same plants that are used recreationally have an important history which would be a shame to censor.
There is a fine line here which needs to be worked out - as this forum is in its infancy it’s probably a good time to set some clear rules? (It will keep happening if we don’t) I have had a quick look around the net and can’t really find any other forums/ cactus society that set rules regarding this.


The above are my own opinions & I appreciate this forum is a privately owned and as such the rules are set by the owners (and Mod team) so whatever the mods decide I will abide by. I enjoy coming here and will play by the rules. I just can’t help but feel, for the good of the forum and its future the above issues should be reconsidered.

I won’t bring this up again unless invited to do so.

watertrade wrote:

EBay - I’m all for it - its good for collecting/selling cacti – discussion in forums like this helps moderate the prices that plants sell for - it helps educate members about prices & it makes for fun discussion too. In an open forum like ‘around the fire’ - in my mind is a great place for discussion of eBay cacti. On the other side of this - every now and then cacti are put up for sale which I’m sure are CITES protected wild harvested plants. So that’s bad.

Ethnobotany & cacti - I think it would be great to have a forum for it! I have never made a basket from an Agave. But I’d like to try! This might not be what this forum is about but I can’t see the harm in it? Of course this would need to be closely moderated to stay clear of certain elements of ethnobotany**
http://www.cssnz.org/ethnobotany-in-cactus-and-succulents.php

The idea about educating ppl about prices is an excellent one. How many times do you see a common plant sell for a lot just because the seller has "RARE" in the item description? That's the sort of thing an open discussion could help avoid for the beginner. I would however hate to see the focus of the forum swing to ebay chat when things get lean and that is where the problem lies i think.

As for the ethno forum, well i couldn't see that staying in control for long at all plus there would be the constant reminders for new members and perhaps even the older members hehe. There just is no need for it here at all.

Threads on ebay can be good at times if only for a laugh at humorous or outrageous listings and also i agree with PD for educational purposes to teach beginning collectors what to avoid, what is a good buy, what isn't a good buy, what's completely ridiculously overpriced etc. though obviously if ebay became the sole focus of the 'Around the Fire' section then things would tend to get a tad monotonous. moderation is the key

watertrade wrote:

On the other side of this - every now and then cacti are put up for sale which I’m sure are CITES protected wild harvested plants. So that’s bad.

...what??? on aussie ebay? plz explain/provide an example. sad to say i frequent it regularly and as yet have never encountered what was (to my knowledge) an illegally field-collected specimen.

lewis wrote:

watertrade wrote:

On the other side of this - every now and then cacti are put up for sale which I’m sure are CITES protected wild harvested plants. So that’s bad.

...what??? on aussie ebay? plz explain/provide an example. sad to say i frequent it regularly and as yet have never encountered what was (to my knowledge) an illegally field-collected specimen.

On Aussie eBay? Not to my knowledge either. But international eBay sellers I'm sure. There is a huge problem with eBay selling CITES plants and animals - usually parts. I just had a quick look and couldn’t see anything but then again they don't advertise it either.
As long as you buy local Lewis I can't see you having any problems.

Ok so it's a bit hard for me to know exactly what to put here. I must try and somewhat walk a middle ground here, whilst remaining true to my convictions. I don't want to tread on anyones toes as this place is as much mine as it is yours. Someone said:

Quote :

But simply put - Trig's Forum - Trig's rules

Well that may be the case in theory I maintain that this place is as much mine as it is yours. We need to work all this out now as I have left it too long really, someone said something about having dividing lines. Well this I do agree with and I am in progress of figuring out just what these the dividing lines of the rules are. Rules are annoying, but we need something.

I might mention I don't host the server so we have to play by their rules first and foremost, then the ACF rules comes second. So I and everyone here needs to respect those rules aswell. One day I might be able to host the server myself and then there will certainly be more freedom of speech.

Anyway, I agree with alot of what has been said, and some I tend to disagree with to some extent.

The ebay thing is a double edged sword, whilst it does personally annoy me, these ebay discussions. I can see the educational benefits of such threads. The problem I see in these threads is 1: Advertising. I prefer not to advertise ebay too much as they truly are a money grabbing & ruthless multinational corporation. Not to mention that some of the sellers are rather unscrupulous. Some are great too!

2: Is that these threads tend to degenerate into name calling sessions where the high bidders become 'idiots'. Take a minute to reflect that some of the bidders and possibly even the sellers are member of the ACF community and they might quite likely take insult to those types of comments made about them in these ebay threads.

Another problem is that we don't have a regular mod who can moderate this Around The Fire forum and this needs to be addressed also. Which is being addressed.

If you want to chat about ebay items and their prices for educational purposes, well i'm all for that. Please can we keep it to the already existing 'Ebay madness thread' http://forum.auscactiforum.net/around-the-fire-f12/ebay-madness-t429.htm and refrain from the insults. I think if that works then there shouldn't be a problem.

Lets just get on with talking about cactus

Oh and...Vicki I am not mad at you for starting the 'Ebay madness' thread. This is something we needed to sort at ACF for a while now.

Another point. Entheogenic discussions of cacti is a no-no, but ethnobotany discussions regarding historical uses etc; should be fine as long as people stay on topic.

See how we go.

Good call, trig... I think that the way you have allowed the ebay thread to stay alive, with the boundaries given is a good thing...

Cheers

Thanks Trig, I'm glad we have rules to go by now.

Yeah thats cool.
I noticed that the rules are quite emphatic about not discussing alkaloids. But i think its possible that alkaloids could be mentioned in discussions about plant protection or taxonomy etc. Maybe 'no entheogenic discussions' is a bit more specific to the interests of this site.

Good Work Trig

Whilst I am loath to promote the evil garage sale myself, and I tend to agree with trig with respect to not filling their pockets any more than is necessary, I couldn't help but think that the Epiphyllum oxypetallum with the item number 180314231626 might be of interest to the Sydney folk who might be on this forum.

It seems to be a large plant with lots of buds, and for the current price on it I would bid myself if I lived up there!

It's finishing up soon...