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 Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?

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Lachy
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Lachy

Number of posts : 733
Location : Langwarrin
Registration date : 2008-04-05

Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? Empty
PostSubject: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptySun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm

G'day guys...

Today's question from me is about grafting on Pereskiopsis. Do you remove the leaves from the stock? If so, do you do it before or after grafting the scion, or does it not matter?

It seems that most people leave the leaves in place; that said, I've bought some professionally grown plants on Pereskiopsis that have had the leaves removed. Is there a definitive answer?
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cortona



Number of posts : 69
Location : central italy tuscany cortona
Registration date : 2008-11-04

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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptySun Jan 10, 2010 9:36 pm

g.day to you,
i graft some seedling to peresk and i never remove the leaves, if you cant put the peresk in a growing situation in the winter the leaves fall by itself so you see the lpllipop effect!
but the speed up of grownt of the peresk come from the larger photosistesis surface of the leaves of peresk!
so no leaves no grownt!
thats is my 20 cent
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lewis
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Number of posts : 862
Location : Melbourne
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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptySun Jan 10, 2010 10:55 pm

Definitely keep the leaves ON as long as possible.
You will probably find that the purchased grafts have dropped the leaves naturally or were removed when they started to look bad.

I'd even go as far as saying taking the healthy leaves off at the time of grafting virtually defeats the purpose of grafting to the peresk in the first place..i believe peresk leaves photosynthesis via the regular plant route not the CAM(?) cacti route; which if i remember correctly cam involves something like only taking in carbon at night which is why cacti can't survive on continuous light and need a dark period. someone please correct me if I'm wrong,
also I wanna know if this is actually proven.

The normal plant method is far more efficient and partially explains why pere grafts (and pere plants) grow so astonishingly quickly. and why usual leafy plants grow faster than cactus. The other reason lies in the root system of pereskiopsis which is both practically impervious to rot and very efficient at sucking up water and nutrients.

The leaves do fall off in time, keeping the plants warm and well hydrated seems to delay this a bit though.
if the pere stem is leafless but still green then the scion growth rate is still fast.

Ultimately the peres stem itself hardens over and has no chlorophyll so it is up to the scion to do the photosynthetic work itself.

basically all the above can be summarised by cortonas comment of ' no leaves no growth'.
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Hellonasty
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Hellonasty

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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptyMon Jan 11, 2010 11:40 am

Cortona and Lewis are correct. I will just add that like Lewis says the stem will photosynthesize and help the scion grow at a faster rate than normal (it will slow over time as ti hardens). The leaves will help speed growth by providing a larger surface area to perform photosynthesis and thus give more energy to the scion.

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Lachy
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Lachy

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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptyWed Jan 13, 2010 6:46 am

That all makes good sense. Now, as a further question I understand that peres has a bit of a reputation as a "short-lived" stock... so, therefore my question is how long can I expect my peres to "keep working" for? I have some slow growers on peres and the thought of regrafting them to keep them alive gives me the willies. One's an Aztekium, you see... Laughing
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mutant
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mutant

Number of posts : 286
Location : Greece
Registration date : 2010-01-10

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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptyMon Jan 18, 2010 5:14 am

Hello . My second post Smile

Great thread. I remember having read this about leaves being a good thing and having to do with more photosynthsising surface and it make sense even before my first graft attempt. Also true the the leaves drop in harsher - colder conditions.

As far as pere being a lasting stock, I have heard mixed opinions. Instict says it might have a lot to do with conditions of growing and general stress and abuse a stock has been through.
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cryptocarpa
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cryptocarpa

Number of posts : 268
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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 12:03 am

My apologies for a long absence I have been lurking. The nursery has me really busy but I wanted to add my 2 cents worth to this post. First I need to declare a vested interest as I think I grew some of the plants Lachy is talking about though the professional moniker is undeserved(I don't make enough$$).
Anyway regarding leaves and perry I need to say that my observations contradict a lot of what has been said here. Scions definitely grow on stocks with leaves removed. I have conducted trails to test this and results were conclusive. Growth is reduced about 20% I reckon but there are several benefits. I grow a few thousand perry grafts and for me ease of management is a big issue. This stock gets False red spider mite(tiny almost invisible to the naked eye)on the leaves badly and they spread and do damage to the scions. This is reduced if leaves are removed and they are more easily controlled. Also the number of shoots produced on a well cared for stock can be as many as a half a dozen a week if they have leaves and they need removal every couple of days. Times this by a thirty five week growing period and a few thousand plants and you can see this becomes a big hassle. For me the growth on stocks without leaves is o.k. It is often fast enough to split scions still(eh Kanje: cintia). I also have many grafts with the perry fully buried that are doig pretty good. I sold some grafted Caputs at the Gettogether and was asked by a couple of very experienced collectors why I left the leaves on.
I think it is best to leave the leaves(pun fully intended) for the first growing season to allow the stock to establish. But after that the main things that are important are a big pot(perry is a large shrub ) lots of food and water. I would point out too that none of the non succulent plants that are commonly grafted have leaves on the stock in fact the opposite is the case. If you are worried though Lachy try letting a few shoots grow then remove the tips thus relacing the leaves. I did this a few years ago on some stocks that had dropped their leaves(as they invariable do after a couple of seasons) but decided it looked bad and wasn't worth it.
Hope I haven't trod on anyones toes with this post but I am quite sure of this.
Also as far as lifespan of perry stock I have over a hundred stocks that are five seasons old and I have only lost two of them. Many of these have had no leaves for four of those seasons(but they have most definitly grown). I reckon the ones that rotted were caused by the scions weighing so heavily on the stocks that the roots were damaged and rot set in. I have heard of grafts that are ten years old on this stock. Basically as Rudolf Shulzt said to me " leave em on there till they fall over" or else stake them.
Lewis; I read something similar about the leaves not doing CAM but that the stems do. It is easy to test by tasting the leaves in the early morning if they are more sour. Or use a pH testif you're less of a Bear Grills.
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Hellonasty
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Hellonasty

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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 10:25 am

Thanks for that info Crypto and welcome back Smile Great to have your experience here. You say your observations contradict but I think you agree (approx 20% faster with leaves) ? for me a 20% gain is quite substantial and worth keeping them on. I should mention I am only a hobby grower and do not intent on mass producing plants.

My experience:
A few years ago I did my first Pereskiopsis grafts, I used very small and thin pereskiopsis and removed all of the leaves, after three years they had grown considerably and I was quite impressed. The following seasons I completed some research and used longer and larger pereskiopsis and left most of the leaves on, during these seasons I produced plants approximately 15-20% larger (educated guess not scientific). Whether the extra growth was attributed to the stock size and leaves I am unable to determine. I may have performed cleaner, more precise grafts or used more advance growing techniques but the results speak for themselves.

On a separate issue, has anyone noticed the Pereskiopsis stock growing whilst grafted ? The very small thin stocks I speak of above had grown quite thick and woody by the time I degrafted.

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Last edited by Hellonasty on Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lachy
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Lachy

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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 1:29 pm

Cheers for the input; Crypto is absolutely right - he's the grower of the plants I speak of, and they are absolute beauties. Peres seems to be an almost bulletproof stock, and I think it's "pumping-up" effect on scions is partially to blame for my mutant loph that's almost turning itself inside out.

Quote :
On a separate issue, has anyone noticed the Pereskiopsis stock growing whilst grafted ? The very small thin stocks I speak of above had grown quite thick and woody be the time I degrafted.

I've noticed that the stock definitely hardens up and becomes more woody over time. It also seems to grow some fairly vicious spines. I reckon there is definitely a limit to this though, as my stock peres plants that don't have anything grafted on them are much more aggressive in their growth. That said, they are grown outdoors in relatively unforgiving conditions, so they have to protect themselves somehow... Laughing
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mutant
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mutant

Number of posts : 286
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PostSubject: Re: Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis?   Removing leaves from Pereskiopsis? EmptyTue Jan 19, 2010 8:12 pm

Crypto that was a very helpful post, thanks a lot!

Yeah, I have noted they tend to become a bit wider with time, not as much as ungrafted though, and especially when exposed to cold, they turn the bases woody...
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