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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyTue Jun 03, 2008 8:02 pm

...edit


Last edited by lewis on Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
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watertrade
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyTue Jun 03, 2008 8:12 pm

hmm... Smile

very interesting. I look forward to seeing any developents
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyWed Jun 04, 2008 1:25 pm

Brings with it the question are all montrose forms viral-induced?
or for that matter, is the subulata actually carrying a virus? it has also been claimed that it is not a virus and rather a hormonal abnormality resulting in the excessive production of offsets. No one actually knows what causes monstrose forms to appear at all, many theories have been put forward, none proven.
If it is a virus is it only transmissible to members of the Opuntia family (Pterocactus being in Opuntioideae)?
will the Pterocactus remain stable if de-grafted to its own roots? if it is a virus then presumably yes once it has been infected.
it seems there has been no real experimentation done on the effects of grafting onto monstrose root stocks.
has anyone ever tried grafting onto lophophocereus schotti monstrose, trichocereus bridgesii monstrose, cereus peruvianus monstrose and the countless other varities of monstrose Opuntias commonly seen? or any other monstrose cactus for that matter? would these result in any effects on the scion? in most cases i have seen no, however most monstrose forms are not at all widely used for grafting stocks, in fact more often as scions since they are often highly prized/rare.
The normal form of O. subulata is being increasingly being recognised as an excellent grafting stock. not being monstrose there are no effects on the scion.

hmm this is a very interesting unexplored area in need of some serious investigation. Smile
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watertrade
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyWed Jun 04, 2008 1:37 pm

lewis wrote:
i have some cuttings of this (the spineless monstrose form used here) in my propagator and i am going to try. i am extremely interested. and finally there will be a use for this weed!

Hi lewis,
my I ask where you got the cuttings? I wouldn't mind having a play with this myself. Smile
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyWed Jun 04, 2008 1:53 pm

i got them at a weekend market, 2 plants for like $4.
you should not have too much trouble locating some of this plant, it is common enough, check out markets if you can. it is often grown and sold by weekend gardeners. Wink
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Gracie
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyWed Jun 04, 2008 10:18 pm

Hi all, Ive uploaded a pic of one of the plants we were given from Mildura in Oct 07. is this the same , ie Opuntia subulata?? the origial condition of the plant was pretty rough so we cut off the longer growths and kept the root and trunk, only recently potted it into the present container for effect. the pruned off sections have grown into healthy looking plants.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25944292@N06/2548238214/
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyThu Jun 05, 2008 5:43 pm

well its a subulata for sure.
whether or not its monstrose is hard to tell at this point, should produce heaps of tiny offsets if it is.
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyFri Jun 06, 2008 10:11 am

i might also add that the taxonomists have had fun with this plant.
also known as:

Opuntia subulata
Cylindropuntia subulata
Austrocylindropuntia subulata
Laughing
Maihuenia subulata
Maihueniopsis subulata
Pereskia subulata

officially, it is now Austrocylindropuntia subulata fma. monstrosus.

and also commonly as Eve's needle, leaf cactus, cane cholla, christmas tree cactus and more.

Screw this, its 'Subulata' or 'subulata monstrose' for me from now on. in working with the monstrose form, it is spineless, very leafy and somewhat like a thicker version of Pereskiopsis, in terms of rampant growth speed, even has the tiny glochiids. also extremely easy and fast to root from cutting snce it is, after all, an opuntia. an added advantage is that it survive without water for much longer, just drops its leaves and shrivels down, is near impossible to kill with any extreme and is much more cold hardy. the very thick stems must be capable of pumping an incredible amount of growth into the scion. and due to the thick stems working with the plant when grafting is less of a pain than pereskiopsis microsurgery.
also, because it is an opuntioid it has a very large vascular cambium surface area compared to most other cacti, which is very clearly defined. this makes double flat-grafting possible:
grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Opunti10
two L. williamsii's flat grafted on normal subulata.
probably even more scions are possible on one stock, will have to try next spring. i wonder if pereskiopsis-style multi grafting from each stem areole is also possible, eg. cut off one of the monstrose offsets and replace it with a seedling. have to try that as well.
this thing has enormous potential.
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Gracie
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyFri Jun 06, 2008 9:47 pm

thank Lewis, its great to get such information, and one less plant for me to put a name to. Ive heaps of cactus still to get ID on.
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San Rainbow
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySat Jun 07, 2008 8:50 am

nice work lewis!
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySat Jun 07, 2008 5:44 pm

The double loph graft isn't mine lol Embarassed i found it on the net and was using the pic to display what is possible on subulata. sorry for any confusion. hopefully by next summer though, i will have something like that to show.
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Hellonasty
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySun Jun 08, 2008 12:02 pm

Interesting. Lewis, how have you decided this is not a chimera ? How many times has this been sucessfully done ?

What I find strange is the scion is taking on not just a monstrose form but the exact same monstrose form of the scion. Different SP display varying forms of monstrose but this scion has taken on the form of the stock plant. This indicates to me there may be some form of gene pooling happening due to the scion and stock being from the same family.

Has there been a monstrose Pterocactus tuberosus before this ?
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySun Jun 08, 2008 1:34 pm

i thought it was a chimera when i first saw it too, then someone much more knowledgable pointed out that :

'It's quite unlikely that the opuntia cells have traveled throughout the scion tissues (that would mean that these cells can actually detach and travel like a malignant tumor throughout the scion. Even more, manage to spread/diffuse evenly over the whole scion. As far as I understand, chimeral cacti form when at the border stock/scion tissue gets mixed and forms a new growth from that point near the graft. And even then, these tend to be unstable and easily revert back to unmixed tissues'.

the two possiblities therefore are:
a) a virus that causes the opuntia to go monstrose has infected the scion.
b) the monstrose formation is due to hormonal abnormalities. the scion sprouts offsets due to altered hormone levels present in the stock.

perhaps therefore, it is only transmissable to Opuntioids.

It is still possible that it is a chimera, but i'm pretty convinced that it isn't.
chimeras usually arrise as an offset near the union point of the stock and scion. in this case the whole scion has gone monstrose.

The interesting thing is that it IS the exact same monstrose form as the stock. this means that the stock has in some way influenced the scion. how we don't know for certain.

I'm guessing this hasn't been done many times, because it is not standard practise to use monstrose cacti as stocks. normal subulata is often used as an excellent grafting stock though.

As far as i know there is no monstrose Pterocactus tuberosus. this plant was normal before grafting. never heard of a monstrose one and there is no reference to it i can find anywhere on the net.

In any case, its time to experiment!! Smile
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Lachy
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyFri Jun 13, 2008 11:40 pm

Shocked

Wow.

I step away from the boards for, like, a couple of weeks and y'all go nuts with new grafting teks!

This is indeed very impressive. I could see a paper for a peer-reviewed journal arising from these findings. My guess is that it's viral, although that's based purely on a gut feeling. I can't see a hormonal imbalance resulting in such growth; rather, I'd imagine something that more aggressively "infects" cells to be at work here.

Very cool anyway. Cool
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Lachy
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySun Oct 11, 2009 4:23 pm

Hey, has there been any followup from these early experiments? I know I got all excited about the idea then totally forgot about it shortly afterwards. grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Icon_redface
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySun Oct 11, 2009 5:24 pm

Last season I grafted a Matucana sp, Echinopsis and a Copiapoa humilis, all offsets on to this stock.
whilst they grew faster, taller and offsetted more heavily than they would on their own roots, they would do that on any grafting stock.
There was no offsetting-from-every-areole alias monstrose action going on at all.
I degrafted these mentioned scions afterwards.

I also heard an attempt by another grower who grafted the yellow albino form of Chamaecereus silvestrii onto it with the same result, or rather lack thereof.

FWIW I also found grafting to this stock to be quite difficult (admittedly I am not very skilled) because the vascular rings on this are set very off centre near the skin.

FYI this so called 'monstrose' form is actually not a virus but some kind of plasmodium/spiroplasma infection, which from my very limited experiment sample would suggest is not transmittable (or at least expressible) to all plants, and is possibly limited to Opuntioids and related genera which explains why this particular form of monstrose is seldom or never? seen outside this family.

I am also unsure why O.subulata monstrose has a tendency to revert suddenly for no apparent reason and I has this happen with many of my specimens and I don't know enough about mycoplasma-like organisms to speculate further.Though apparently the plasmodium infection can even be cured by treating the affected plant in hot water!

Anyone else give this a try?
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Lachy
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySun Oct 11, 2009 6:18 pm

Well, that's a bit disappointing. I was hoping for freaky frankencactus!

Has anyone tried loph grafts onto subulata? I've got four good-sized cuttings of subulata in pots and a grafted loph on peres that's cranking out pups like there's no tomorrow. The pups are too big for further grafts onto peres, but subulata may offer a solution. At this stage, it's either that or I may have to source some baby trichs to graft onto.
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySun Oct 11, 2009 6:42 pm

Quote :
Has anyone tried loph grafts onto subulata?
no mate! but I say go for it! grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Icon_smile
I know that it can work well, even a double graft! grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Icon_eek

Quote :
I may have to source some baby trichs to graft onto.
IMLE I find that the seedling Tricho pachanoi/scop & Myrtillocactus from Bunnings (2in pot- ex. Paradisia) are good for this!
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Lachy
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySun Oct 11, 2009 6:55 pm

Quote :
IMLE I find that the seedling Tricho
pachanoi/scop & Myrtillocactus from Bunnings (2in pot- ex.
Paradisia) are good for this!

I'll try that too, I reckon. So far, the only grafts that I've done have been onto pereskiopsis, however even the most enthusiastic growth on peres won't accommodate the one inch pups from my loph.

Unfortunately, scops and pachs are pretty rare at the Bunnings down my way. I may have to go on a mission to Collectors' Corner soon...
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Lanna

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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyFri Oct 23, 2009 1:04 pm

One inch Loph pups can be successfully regrafted back onto Pereskiopsis using a wedge graft technique.
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Lachy
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyFri Oct 23, 2009 1:51 pm

I've seen the wedge graft-thingy done on a few occasions. However, I'd prefer to graft onto pach or scop simply because the stock is longer lasting and for pups of that size, more aesthetically pleasing.
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Lanna

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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyFri Oct 23, 2009 3:41 pm

I agree, trich's make better long term stocks, but there is nothing like pereskiopsis to pump out pups for propagating. Wink
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyWed Oct 28, 2009 8:04 am

Lachy wrote:


Has anyone tried loph grafts onto subulata?

Lachy,

I've tried about 4/5 times to graft onto subulata. Every time has failed. I've nailed native Opunts, Myrtillos, Trichs, Hylocereus, Selenicereus and the ever present Pereskiopsis, but finally gave up on subulata.

It can be done as illustrated in the photo, apparently though just not by me grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Icon_smile
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lewis
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptyWed Oct 28, 2009 11:51 am

If you want growth and a long-lasting grafting stock then you need a 1m tall, fat T.pachanoi.
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mutant
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grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. Empty
PostSubject: Re: grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose.   grafting onto Opuntia subulata monstrose. EmptySun Jan 24, 2010 7:46 am

Interesting topic. I tried this a bit, but you need a single column cut to graft on. Might try it again, glochids make it less appealing... Maybe plain subulata is better.
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